Ep. 159: Clever Extra - Innovating for the Future of Furniture Design

For this Clever Extra, Amy Devers sat down with Kent Parker and Paul Wilkinson of the design studio Formway in New Zealand and Giulio Bonazzi, who leads Italian fiber producer Aquafil, to discuss their design collaboration. Together, they unpack the story behind a truly remarkable chair, the noho move chair. The noho move chair is revolutionizing residential seating design by addressing issues of health, movement, multifunction, and sustainability in monumental ways, while also pushing the boundaries and performance capabilities of the material it’s made from. Get a behind the scenes look at the innovation, collaboration, and experimentation that goes into creating the future of furniture design.

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Read the Transcript

Kent Parker: My name is Kent Parker. I am the co-CEO and Project Director at Formway Design in Wellington, New Zealand. My goal is to develop products that really add to the world and enrich the world, both the people in it and the planet we live on.

Paul Wilkinson: My name is Paul Wilkinson. I am also a co-CEO of Formway Design Studio here in Wellington, New Zealand. I guess I've always had a passion for engineering and technology and design, and then a very strong passion about doing furniture.

Giulio Bonazzi: I'm Giulio Bonazzi, the Chairman and CEO of Aquafil. Aquafil is a fiber producer of Italy and I am based in the beautiful city of Verona, which is also a city of Italy. 

Amy Devers: Let's go back to the very beginning, or actually before the beginning. (laughter) Paul and Ken, co-CEOs of Formway, what does Formway do and what is the sort of nature of your expertise? Can you describe that for me?

Kent: The studio and the team here have this higher goal of wanting to enrich people's lives. We are furniture designers, but we really want to do products that affect people's lives in a really positive way. Whether that's in the function of the product or in the beauty product, but ideally both obviously. For us, we do the research when we design a product, and then generally we collaborate with world leading brands to bring these products to market. 

That's really important for us that the companies we collaborate with have shared values and really have the same ambition for the product and want to deliver these products to market in the way that we do. When we get that right it generally leads to quite a successful outcome. 

I guess the other thing is that we did start as manufacturers many, many years ago and we've evolved to become a studio that is recognized in our industry as a leader in the research and design of performance seating. Performance seating is our main product area. We've had many successful products and a lot of those with the noho, so the Life Chair, Generation Chair range, ReGeneration Chairs, and these have been sold and distributed worldwide.

Paul: Throughout that time the performance and the economics of workplace seating has really evolved a long way and that is to better support the dynamics of the human body. What we noticed was that residential furniture and particularly seating hasn't really changed. 

Kent and I over the years have had these conversations about how seating in our homes has really not kept up with how our lives have changed and what we do in our homes today. So, for us, that was the opportunity for the noho new chair. It was kind of relatively obvious to us and something we'd been thinking about for quite a long time, but we actually got on and started to design it. 

In as well as creating the chair itself, it ultimately led as well to the establishment of the noho brand. noho is a sister company of ours, it's a direct-to-consumer brand based here in New Zealand that set out to help people live healthily by creating live enriching furniture, furniture that is beautiful, versatile, and built to last a lifetime. In fact what we hope it does is redefine the design for people and also for the planet.

Amy: Wow, those are big goals. (Laughter) Why don't you and I get together and evolve residential seating, make healthy furniture, and save the planet.

Paul: Yeah.

Amy: That sounds like a really good plan. (Laughter) I mean I'd love to know when you embark on such an endeavour like that. How did you identify what the goals were for the project? And then how did that research and development process get [0.05.00] underway? Clearly you had a skill set with workplace seating and task chairs, and it sounds like you had a goal to sort of support healthy movement in the residential seating category, too. So, how did you define what your goals were and what area of residential seating you were going to start to work through?

Kent: Good question. We had a sort of hypothesis of what we wanted in our homes (laughter) and we talked about it quite a bit to make sure that we didn't just produce products to please ourselves. We (laughter) do step back and do quite a lot of research. 

It might be voice of the customer work, or questionnaires, and different markets as well. We began really looking at what people were actually doing in their homes. This might be from apartment living in big cities around the world and country homes, but the research technique that really worked for us on this project was video observation. 

Believe it or not, people let us set up cameras in their homes and we did a lot of hours of video research of what people were actually doing in those homes, and identifying what activities are undertaken and for how long. This research really identified this kitchen/dining space. We want to come up with a new name for this space, but this is this place where we collaborate the most. 

It's a multifunctional space in our homes; it's where we'll have an evening meal, where we occasionally hold a dinner party. But, actually proportionally in time, it's where we do a lot of other things like home office work, or kids are doing homework, or we're doing crafts. This is a place where we congregate regularly and we share and we tell stories. 

Amy: Yeah, it's really the heartbeat of the home, that area and you are so right that dining is only one aspect of what happens. Usually it's homework, crafts, projects, meeting. Yeah, it's everything now and so it has to function in that way.

Paul: That's right, and there's lots of opportunities for us to make that space more usable and more intuitive so that we can better do the tasks that we're undertaking. But, I guess for us in the seating area, the thing we could do is produce a chair that supported the body for those activities. Movement is key for that. It's also key for health and well-being. If we're going to sit down and do two hours of work at our laptop in the evening, you better be well-support for that. And obviously comfort is key to that, as well.

Kent: On top of that, one of the things we need to talk about today is environmental considerations and this is something has been key to our studio for a long time, but also came out of that same research. Maybe not the video observation, but through talking to our customers and looking at how people are living their lives and choosing their products. 

It really did show that people are looking for really genuine, holistic solutions. They're quite frustrated with Greenwash that is being put over products out there, and that's something we really wanted to challenge. So, we took all of this and created a brief. We have documents that are really detailed that dive down the [** 0.08.34] part of the product, but they do very accurately describe the opportunity we're trying to fulfil and they have clear design drivers. 

Then off the back of those we then move into our next phase of work. We have three phases of work we called Discover, Design, and Deliver and each of those phases we spend an equal amount of time which is kind of rare in a design studio. We give ourselves the opportunity to do a hang on a lot of research, as we said, to really understand the unmet need. 

Then having done our research, we do go into design again in a deep way. We literally spend thousands of hours building and experimenting with working prototypes, testing with user groups and stakeholder groups until we're satisfied with the prototypes that we've built and those prototypes are both aesthetic and functional so that we're happy with how things work both aesthetically, performance, and durability-wise. 

One of the things that is specific for us or that was challenging for us was that having identified the residential, we wanted to do something in the residential market. We wanted to deliver performance and ergonomics that was in a sophisticated workplace setting that clearly we understood well having done it for a long time, into an object that was suitable for the home. Something that was desirable and appropriate for that environment [0.10.00] and appropriate for the customer group we were targeting. 

When we started, one of the first things we did when we started this project, we took our work chairs, our task chairs that we've got here in the studio, we took them and we gave them to people. Everyone in the studio took them home, put them around their own dining tables, their own dining tables, their own home environments. To be clear, this was not a popular aesthetic for people (laughter) they really don't like having these very technical looking workplace chairs. 

But, what they found was that subconsciously people actually gravitated to them. When you have guests over, they chose to sit on those rather than aesthetic chairs and for us that was a clear indication that we were doing something that was valuable to people. 

Amy: I think this is so interesting because I also felt a little antsy or anxious about the idea of a bunch of task chairs around my dining room table. First of all, I don't want to be reminded of work when I'm having what would be my connection time.

Amy: Emotionally resonant connection time with friends and family. At the same time I'm a huge believer that that furniture can support interpersonal dynamics and it should and it should be designed for that. So, an uncomfortable chair doesn't make you want to linger and have the kind of long conversation about the deep questions of life if you want to get out of your chair as soon as possible. I also think - Children that grow up around these chairs are going to have memories attached to them, so they have to speak a certain language if they're too functional then you make productivity a thing that happens at the dining table, and that's maybe the place where it shouldn't be.

Paul: Absolutely, totally agree. That's part of creating the atmosphere and the environment.

Kent: And that environment is a loving, sharing, caring, nurturing environment. It should reflect your personality and what you value. It shouldn't be something that tells you how to live your life. It should be there and support how you want to live your life. have a philosophy of subconscious seating. Seating is really like a good shoe, if it fits and it works well, it should be in the background of what you're doing, not be trying to lead what you're doing. We succeed when people just use the product and don't think about it.

Amy: Yeah. I'm fully on board at this point (laughter) this is a big, big job though. In order for a chair to include all of this performance to support the healthy movement that is needed for all of these different activities, to also be beautiful enough that people keep them around for a really long time because that's the best ways to be sustainable, is just don't throw it away right away (laughs). Don't replace it.

Kent: Right, absolutely.

Amy: It needs to function, it needs to look beautiful, and it also needs to actually be made in a way that is not extractive, but is generative. That material that you needed to find also had to perform. What does that material look like? How did you define what kind of material you were going to make this chair out of?

Paul: That is a big question as well. I guess first and foremost what you said is right, is for us it has to be a very durable product and that it is a very long journey to get it tested. We have to choose a material that will give us the performance we need and the durability on top of all that environmental performance. It is challenging and it's something we've been doing for a long time. 

For the last 20 years we've been looking for new materials and it's a key part of our product development, and we are continuously looking for those new materials as technology changes. Those new materials can lead to new product performance and a lot of our products have different performance from other chairs in the market. It's really important to us. The key to that is a better environmental performance. 

Back when we did the Life Chair and we're talking about 2000 when we were designing that chair, the Life Chair stands for light, intuitive, flexible, and environmental. At that time we had won awards for the Life Chair for it's environmental performance at that time, because that was when we started looking really at the total life cycle of the product. That it's not just [0.15.00] the materials you use, but where they come from, how they're manufactured, how they're delivered, where they're delivered. Then the end of life cycle, as well. 

With each new product we endeavour to reduce our impact on the planet. For the noho Muud Chair we are carried along on this journey, but we wanted to take quite a big step. We did look at all parts of the chair, so that includes like everybody talked about, durability. We looked at reducing the numbers of components on the chair, we're making sure that every part that we put on the chair does as much, or can work as possible, or is doing something of value in the product. 

Then we reduced the quantity of the material on each part of the product. The material that we're looking for had to have a high performance, so we're not looking at a consumer materials. This is a high performing engineering material, but we wanted it to come from a waste drain, that was key to us in looking at its reduced carbon footprint as well.

Amy: I'm happy to hear that this is the backbone of your practice and I, as somebody who teaches design, I think that's something that all designers need to incorporate into the way that they operate, but I understand it's a project. And it's ongoing, and it sounds like always searching for new materials is something that both of you are actively engaged in. That's a good segue now to talk to Giulio and to learn more about Aquafil and the material produced at Aquafil called ECONYL. Giulio, can you talk to me about ECONYL. I'd love to hear the story.

Giulio ECONYL is a nylon fiber. Actually it was born as a nylon fiber. Aquafil is the largest nylon fiber producer in Europe and among the 10 top largest in the world. ECONYL, what is has of difference with the other fiber is called nylon polymers. Instead of using oil derivatives, so fossil fuels, it comes entirely from waste, waste that sometimes are particularly ugly like fishing nets or old carpets or plastic scraps and fabric trains and stuff like that, but 100% waste. No new resources from the planet. 

On top of that it's using a system of recycling which is infinite, so can be applied an infinite number of times. It means you give me back your old nylon carpets and I can give you the fabric to make a swimsuit. You give me back your swimsuit and then I can give you the pallet to make a beautiful chair like the Muud Chair of noho. It's a material that doesn't give any limitation to designers or to engineers, doesn't take new resources, can be recycled and infinite number of times, and this with 90% less CO2 emissions in comparison with a conventional fossil fuel nylon. I believe that this is not bad.

Amy: No! (Laughter) This is great. I just want to make sure I'm understanding. ECONYL is essentially as good as virgin nylon in terms of what you can do with it, but it's entirely made from waste. So, the process of making it, including having reduced emissions is also kind of cleaning the plant, right? You're scooping up wasted fishing nets from the ocean and old carpet, and turning it into a product that can be used to make what? What is ECONYL primarily used to make?

Giulio It is exactly what is happening, instead of dumping end of life products into landfills or even worse, into the oceans, we take them back, it is assembled, we extract the nylon, and the we reproduce a new nylon. ECONYL because Formway and noho, was primarily used for fashion and carpet flooring. 

Fashion, I mean the most famous fashion designers in Italy, Europe, and in the world are using ECONYL. Like for example, Prada, Gucci, Stella McCartney, Burberry and many, many others. In the flooring industry the most important carpet producers are using ECONYL, like in Interface and Milligan, and, let’s say in Japan and Europe, and even in New Zealand. (Laughter) 

I like to go to New Zealand; it's one of my favorite countries actually (laughs). Nylon is a high performing material; it can be used for many different uses. We are even using ECONYL for 3D printing application, but sometimes it happens that someone steps into your booth [0.20.00] as it happened with our friends of noho and they ask you for something that you have not done before. (Laughter)

Amy: Ooh, how did that go? How did you all meet? And when they asked you for something you haven't done before, Giulio, did that feel like a dare? (Laughs)

Giulio Actually it was some years ago, we were in Chicago at NeoCon, so the story really began in the same place where this year it continued. They stepped into the booth, we were having an exposition that is a permanent exposition in the MART in Chicago and they asked whether we were ready to develop ECONYL also for home products and especially for chairs. 

I was, not expecting such a challenging project, (laughter) but they were lucky to have been given the opportunity of developing this incredible product. It took some time and then they can for sure explain the kind of difficulties they have challenged us with, but at the end I believe that we have really made an outstanding work.

Kent: We initially started looking for materials that could deliver the environmental credentials that we were hoping to achieve this product in really reducing the effect of this product on the planet and we came across Aquafil and their ECONYL story. 

I remember myself and Paul and a number of others in the team here listening to a video presentation online by Giulio and we were just inspired by the story and the technology that had been developed to re-polymerize this nylon. Hence when we were at NeoCon we went on the stand and Giulio was there and the conversation started. Again, we were inspired by his enthusiasm for what we were wanting to do.that was just a really important relationship that was struck up to develop the product using the ECONYL nylon.

Amy: SO, you fell in love with the story and then you went to meet Giulio and together you figured out how to what? What had to happen to ECONYL to make it become the performance material you were needing?

Kent: Giulio made introductions to the design team here and we started on regular meetings with engineers and the chemists that are in the team there. It culminated in Aquafil producing specific formulations for us to trial and some testing tool that we developed here in New Zealand. We got samples of materials, molded them, did a whole lot of testing on those. These sort of developments are never easy when you're trying to use a material in a new way. 

This was not a simple product to mold, so not only was it the first product using this material, it was trying to jump into the deep end and do a very complicated product. We had challenges for sure, and it was that sort of commitment that Aquafil and Giulio's team had with people coming out to help resolve issues with the molding of the parts. They really made sure that this came through, so it was pretty important. 

Amy: Yeah, I'm hearing you and understanding that Formway had a really vested interest in working with a material that could deliver on the sustainability that was so important. Aquafil is doing what you need to do, but in order to get to that performance level for furniture, it requires a lot of new chemistry, a lot of new tooling, a lot of back and forth, a lot of trial and error. A lot of that does take commitment, it's a real relationship between Aquafil and Formway that you both are invested in this working out. [0.25.00] How did that relationship work together and what was the dance like, and did you feel committed to, and supported the whole time?

Paul: Very much so. We were committed and Aquafil always showed commitment when we were having challenges. I mean the product was pushing boundaries of using any engineering polymer. We were pushing the boundaries for the flexibility and the durability of the product. You couldn't produce this product without a polymer base to it that couldn't be made of steel or wood or anything else. 

This is delivering, the material was delivering the performance we wanted, but we were pushing the boundaries, and in doing that with a material that had primarily been used for fiber production before. Although it has all those engineering properties, it was hard to know whether we were having challenges with the design which we definitely were, (laughs) or we were having challenges with the material. It was just, as you say, a bit of a dance getting that to work and it took quite some time.

Giulio If I may. What they asked us from a certain standpoint was really pushing the boundaries, but Aquafil is a large producer of polymer that is normally used for fiber. We really had to work together with them, understanding as much as possible what they wanted to make in order to develop a special chemical formulation for this product. 

Thanks to their support and of course to the support of the noho, we finally arrived to something that is really performing well. It is so performing well that I'll tell you this, when I went to visit them in Wellington, New Zealand after something like 24 hours flight, (laughter) because if you did it all from Italy and you cross the planet, then you'll reach New Zealand. 

(Laughter) It's really on the other side of the planet, something like 10 or 12 hours’ time difference, they let me sit more than three hours on the chair. I tell you that it was so comfortable that it's a phenomenal product (laughter) and I'm not kidding, this is actually what happened there, you know. (Laughter)

Amy: I love that story, Giulio, I think this is such a beautiful example of how real innovation can't happen without the full buy-in from all industries essentially. People can design really innovative products, but without an innovative material, it can't really go that far. With a material manufacturer who is also really interested in sustainable outcome and innovating with their polymer, the two of you can get together and make real magic. 

And it sounds like (laughs) Giulio after making the trek to New Zealand, was able to (laughter) confirm for himself (laughs) that his product was being put to good use. That must have felt really good. (Laughter) Now, as Giulio mentioned, the chair is, it's real, it's out in the world. Not only is it out in the world, but it's garnering a pretty phenomenal reaction not only from Giulio, but it just won a couple of awards at NeoCon. Can you tell me about that. We've been talking a lot about this chair and how comfortable it is and it's performance, but can you kind of get into the nitty gritty of just what it does and what it looks like?

Paul: Sure, we'd love to. We're really proud to have won the gold awards at NeoCon. It's not what we designed the chair, we don't design to win awards, but it's really nice to be recognized that people think we've done something that is truly innovative which is what we think about the noho Muud Chair. 

As Giulio said for us, it was about providing new levels of flexible dynamic seating which is really important again coming back to the opportunity and what we're trying to do which is supporting that broad range of activities. For us that's about not staying still, it's about keeping moving, and about being healthy and ensuring your well-being is being taken care of. People out there are going to get the opportunity to sit in the chair because that's the way to really experience the chair, is to sit on in it. 

I'll have a crack at describing what it does. (Laughter). The first actually has what we call a fluid rocking motion, so the chair moves with you as you... [0.30.00] It's not what you would call a rocking chair, you know how a rocking chair moves you a long way? This is quite a subtle thing, but it has a rocking that subtly moves you. What that does is it activates your muscles and helps reduce the effects of static loading. 

This movement also allows you take what is called a forward act of posture. That's when you lean into the table, whether you are eating or it particularly happens when you are talking to someone to show that you're interested in the conversation, you lean forward, or when you're writing or working on a laptop. 

It's a really, really common posture, and by the chair moving with you and coming forward, it reduces under thigh pressures, it promotes blood flow, and reduces those common issues associated with sitting that you were talking about in a static product. You know how after a long time you really get uncomfortable through the pressures and restricting blood flow. 

The second element in the chair is the shell itself or the seated surface. It's really a dynamic back shape and that also changes to your body shape. It changes as you sit in the chair. It changes as you recline in the chair. It allows your spine to extend. It allows you to flex backwards also increasing blood flow and helping the lubrication of your vertebral discs. Movement on all parts of the chair is key.

Then the compliance shell itself is quite unique and to see it in the flesh is really what you need to do because it's quite a detailed thing. It is very compliant. It moves in a different way. It has a pattern to it that's [** 0.31.43] means that... I won't get into the details of that, but we find it really fascinating. It means that our pattern shell can move in a different way and what that allows the shell to do, which is a single part, is that it ties all of these things into one dynamic movement that supports you as you move from one posture, the next, and giving you comfort through all of that. And please, Amy, don't forget, it's beautiful. (Laughter)

Amy: Yeah.

Giulio Because if it was not beautiful, they would have not won the prize at NeoCon, believe me, you know.

Amy: I've seen photos and I encourage all of our listeners to go look for it as well. We'll include links. That it is, it's gorgeous. There's a breathability to it that I'm also interested in, because the shell is one piece, but it's not solid.

Kent: Yeah, I think that's one of the additional benefits of the pattern, is that it creates air pockets in the surface and obviously breathes through the product. The great thing about that is that if it was a solid mass of material, it has more of a cold shock when you sit on it. I guess it's about trying to make those materials as evenly balanced with the body temperature as possible. So, there's a real benefit to that. In hot environments it obviously breathes. In cool environments, it captures the air in those pockets and tried to balance that temperature out.

Paul: As you say, it's in the market, and with this world that we're living in at the moment where a lot of people are having to work from home, it has naturally taken, been appealing to those people that are working from home. People have been buying it as a work from home product. 

Of course it couldn't cater for this, but it was really designed for that collaborative space around the dining table and we're excited to see what evolve as well into more of a dining product or, what's that word we use, that multi-activity area product that we designed it for. So, it's an exciting time to have brought this product onto the market.

Kent: Coming back to the material, you can't undersell the importance of the impact on the planet and the fact that this excellent Aquafil material has really given that opportunity to create a product that is so much more valuable than the way it moves, the way it looks, but also how healthy it is for our environment. [0.35.00]

Amy: Right. No, that's incredibly important. I you had designed a chair that performs this well in a material that wasn't as sustainable, it wouldn't have the soul that it has, (laughs). I'm wondering, the three of you have come through so much together in terms of really wrangling all of this into a successful product. Do you have any hindsight? When you're looking back on the pros and cons and the challenges and the ground that you broke together, were there any real moments of magic or elation or euphoria (laughter) or blood, sweat, and tears? There was a lot of all of that. (Laughter) With a project of this scale and this duration, there's lots of moment, highs and lows and there are I'd say magical moments along the way. I guess there’s a number of them, one was when we built those first works like and looks like prototypes and put them in front of our stakeholders and some of the user triallers and in front of our investors and we all agreed that this is something that we really want to do.

Another one was finding the materials, finding Aquafil and the ECONYL product and knowing that they were so excited about doing this product with us. We were super excited when we got the first parts of tools. These massive tools that we invest in to produce the chair. The first part has come off and you put those first chairs together and you get the inkling that you might be doing something that's working (laughter) because it's a bit of a frightening time as well. (Laughter)

Amy: Yes.

Paul: And obviously launching the noho brand in the US and getting those first products into the market was incredibly satisfying. We've got a long way to go and we've got lots of things we can continue to develop. I guess the one thing that we can say for sure is that it's the partnerships, the partnership with ECONYL and the Aquafil, and noho that really brought this product to the market, and obviously the manufacturers that have been involved in the project as well.

Amy: I love the poetry in that because it's the collaboration and the partnership that you're encouraging with this furniture. To know that it's in the DNA of the furniture is also very important. Giulio, after working so hard to develop a polymer that is completely made from waste and yet performs as virgin nylon does, it must be really exciting for you to move into another... It must open up entire worlds if you can move into not just fiber-based.

Giulio Yes, very because of course the design industry is so incredibly beautiful in term of possibilities and different products that you can develop. We are all very, very excited. For me, my magic moment was when I saw the chair for the first time (laughter) and I tested it. Now hopefully I will see also many other products that may be developed with the same creativity and techniques that really make products for home or for the office business, so incredibly performing.

Amy: This sounds like a long term relationship; this sounds like it really has some staying power.

Giulio Of course I hope so. (Laughter) I'm really looking forward to seeing them coming to Europe and possibly helping them to sell their beautiful chairs into the European market.

Amy: Now it's your turn to get on that airplane and travel (laughter) to the other side of the planet. (Laughter)

Paul: Absolutely.

Kent: We're really looking forward to doing that again, it's been a while. We've been in our own little bubble down here for quite some time.

Giulio I can imagine that you want a day to escape (laughs) from your -

Paul: Absolutely.

Kent: Yeah, absolutely. 

Paul: Particularly to Italy, it's such a beautiful country.

Amy: I want to thank all of you [0.40.00] for sharing with me the origin story of this truly innovative product. The noho Muud Chair is beautiful, it sounds amazingly comfortable, and really forward thinking. I don't want to say it's timeless because we don't know yet, but it sounds like baked into its DNA it has everything it needs to become a timeless feature, a family member (laughter) in people's lives. So, thank you for that. Thank you for the story.

Giulio Thank you.

Paul: Thank you, I hope it does.

Kent: Thanks very much for having us and letting us share the story.

Giulio Thank you, Amy.

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Many thanks to this episode’s sponsor:

This episode of Clever is brought to you by Aquafil, makers of ECONYL, a regenerated nylon derived from 100% recycled waste. Learn more here.

Clockwise from left: Kent Parker, Paul Wilkinson, Amy Devers, Giulio Bonazzi

Noho move chair

Paul and Kent in their studio

Noho move chair

Noho move chair

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Clever is produced by 2VDE Media. Thanks to Rich Stroffolino for editing this episode.
Production assistance from Ilana Nevins and music by El Ten Eleven—hear more on Bandcamp.
Shoutout to Jenny Rask for designing the Clever logo.

Clever is a proud member of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit airwavemedia.com to discover more great shows.

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