Ep. 169: Eames Institute’s Chief Curator Llisa Demetrios on the Power of Infinite Curiosity

Chief Curator of the Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity, Llisa Demetrios grew up in a family of brilliant sculptors, authors, and designers. Her mother’s parents were none other than Charles and Ray Eames, the legendary mid-century design duo. In addition to pioneering design work, apparently they were excellent grandparents as well, imparting on Llisa a way of engaging with the world through curiosity and a lens for new possibilities. This approach to creative problem-solving has guided Llisa through a career as an archivist and bronze sculptor. Now, as the Chief Curator of the recently-launched Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity, Llisa is bringing the lessons of Charles and Ray to life for the next generation of curious problem solvers.

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Amy Devers: Hi everyone, I’m Amy Devers and this is Clever. Today I’m talking to Llisa Demetrios. Llisa Demetrios is the youngest grandchild of Charles and Ray Eames - the legendary mid-century industrial design duo who made significant, pioneering contributions to modern furniture and architecture. Llisa grew up steeped in the lessons and inquiries of her grandparents, and learned to embrace their approach as a way to navigate the world, solve problems, and see new possibilities. Now, after decades of concerning herself with preserving the Eames’ legacy and vast collections of furniture, drawings, films, prototypes, and sketches, she’s embarked on a new way to share their approach with the world - The Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity - recently launched, with a star-studded team of collaborators, the new platform aims to bring the lessons of Charles and Ray to life for the next generation of curious problem solvers. Existing initially as a free and easily accessible online destination, the Eames Institute curates experiences, content and programs that are designed to engage the audience interactively, sparking that curiosity and wonder that energized the Eames’ methods, and informed their world view. Llisa is also an archivist and passionate bronze sculptor, and as you’ll hear in her story, she brings all of this creativity, material sensibility, historical knowledge, and embodied wisdom, through in her curatorial work with the Eames Institute and imbues it with a sense of joy and dare I say, Infinite Curiosity… here’s Llisa

Llisa: My name is Llisa Demetrios. I live in Petaluma, California. I am the Chief Curator at the Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity. 

Amy: Well that is quite a title. Before we get all the way to that, I would like to go back to the beginning. You come from quite lineage and I wonder if we can start by just learning who you are. I'd really like to start with the formative years. If you could talk about your home town, your childhood fascinations, and of course your family dynamic. Including your very creative DNA.

Llisa: I am the youngest of five children. I was born and raised in San Francisco, California. I played a lot of sports. I also did ballet and gymnastics. I also volunteered at Steinhart Aquarium in Golden Gate Park on Saturdays and worked at a little store in UW Square on Sundays. 

I loved being in San Francisco and spending time doing all these different activities.

Amy: For sure.

Llisa: Okay. On my father's side I come from a bronze sculptor, my father's father. My grandmother was Virginia Lee Burton who wrote children's books like Mike Mulligan and His Steam Shovel. Then on my mother's side I come from Ray and Charles Eames who were extraordinarily gifted designers, but were even more amazing as grandparents. And...

Amy: Wait. Wait. Wait. That's pretty amazing to have all that creativity in your background. I have to just put an exclamation point on Charles and Ray Eames. I'm a furniture designer so...

Llisa: Yes.

Amy: Their contribution to American design is historic and just can't be understated. So I also am going to need to know did you grow up around all of that furniture? Did you have access to the studio? They were amazing grandparents. I'm so happy to hear that because I don't want my idols to be (laughter) knocked off their pedestals.

Llisa: Yes. No, as prolific as they were, they were amazing grandparents. I think what makes it so special is yes, we got to go down and visit their office at the Eames Office, in 901 Washington Boulevard in Venice, California, and stay at their home and spend time with them and learn about how they solved problems. They never talked down to us. We thought everyone's grandparents made films like Powers of Ten or...

Amy: Oh, man. 

Llisa: Short little multiscreen presentations. But what is most important is I felt heard and listened to. They knew I wanted to be a sculptor and so Charles and Ray said to me, “Then use every tool in your studio as well if not better than the person you hire and then you'll know when they're doing a good job.”

Amy: Woah! How old were you when they said that and that lodged in your brain?

Llisa: I was only about 10. 

Amy: Oh my god!

Llisa: Charles passed away when I was 12 and Ray when I was 22. It was great advice that I didn't realize how great it was until I was a full-time sculptor. Also they said, “Focus on one material,” and what they meant by that is really learn that material. 

So I picked bronze and sheets of bronze to... It took me three years to weld. Learned how to do that in my parent’s studio and to really understand what the material could or could not do. It's that idea of the honest use of materials that is also in Ray and Charles's work.

Amy: I'm really interested in this because you as a child, this would all just feel like normal.

Llisa: Exactly. This is my normal.

Amy: Yes! (Laughter)

Llisa: It was a gift. And it only is a gift that I realize is more and more of a gift as I get older, raise my own family, [0.05.00] and work with the archival material that my mother inherited from them. I just realize every year how special all of this is. It's also not just the physical material that's in the collection, it's having heard the stories and being around them. 

I'm often asked what is one of my earliest memories of spending time with Ray and Charles, and it's going out to dinner with them in Venice, California, a restaurant near their office. We're coming back from the restaurant and Charles turned to me and said, “What did you think of dinner?” It was borscht. I was eight. You can guess what my answer was.

Amy: I didn't learn to appreciate borscht until my early adulthood.

Llisa: No. Exactly. I love making borscht now, but at the time I did not like it. So I said to Charles, “I didn't like it very much.” Without missing a beat he turned back to me and said, “Well how would you have done things differently?”

Amy: Wow. 

Llisa: If you're going to complain about something you need to have a better way of doing something. We ended up, he said, “Do you know what's in borscht?” I wasn't quite clear, but he explained beets and potatoes and onions. He was like, “You can make a salad and you could make mashed potatoes, or something.” 

Then he also added why did the chef make it that day. So we talked about why did it? Was it maybe a grandmother's birthday in Russia and they were trying to think of connecting with them, how to make it...

Amy: Oh my gosh! Context!

Llisa: Yes. They said maybe that's all that was at the farmer's market. Maybe that was just the soup du jour that they always had on that day. What was great is I felt heard and yet I learned so much in that moment of just being able to look at things differently and be able to see, as you said, the context. I just thought that was an incredibly valuable lesson. It was a great life lesson I was given.

Amy: What a fantastic way to engage with your grandchildren. To impart the kind of thinking that you've developed over your life's work, but to also engage with your grandchildren in a way that is so validating to their opinions and their development and also trusting that they will be able to see the world in this dimension, this great, deep dimension that you do. 

Llisa: That's why for me it's these layers that have solely my mother and I telling stories around the pieces or memories that we have. That is what really brings it to life for me and I love sharing these stories. This is why taking care of the collection, I was a grandchild when I saw these objects at their office, and now I'm taking care of them and I have a whole other appreciation for their process being around the work that I do today.

Amy: You also have the historical benefit of seeing how it was so revolutionary in its incarnation and it's first round, but how it's endured and shaped design and design thinking since its invention is just incredible. I want to get back to something else you said. You said that you picked bronze and you learned to TIG weld and you're a bronze sculptor.

Llisa: Yes.

Amy: Did this start in your youth?

Llisa: It did. My parents had a studio on South San Francisco where they were making much larger scale sculptures, more 80 ft tall for large commissions.

Amy: Oh shit! 

Llisa: Right!

Amy: 80 ft tall.

Llisa: 80 ft tall. What I saw with them working was I decided with my own work to work smaller, like 10 ft or less because it was something I saw with Ray and Charles also. They would call it a 'chair,' architecture you can hold in your hand because you can control all the parts. As opposed to if you're building a house then you're also painting it, getting a plumber, getting all these people together.

When learning how to make sculptures out of sheets of bronze I could do everything in-house by myself. I could drive the forklift. I could weld. I could do it. I loved it because then I could make all the choices. Usually I worked in a wooden maquette first, only about 12 in tall and then I enlarged it to whatever scale it needed to be.

Amy: This is fascinating. Clearly you had all the support you needed from many generations to flourish [0.10.00] in your own creativity.  I'm kind of zeroing in on your adolescence here, the teenage years when you identity is being forged – did this ever feel like pressure?

Llisa: No, it actually felt very natural. I have always been making things. As a little girl I would take my old socks and make fish mobiles. I would gather the socks and make little birds out of old material. I would take scraps of wood on my floor of my parent’s studio and make little scale models. So I was always making.

What is also interesting is when I went to college though, my parents didn't want me to major in art. They wanted me to have a plan B. They wanted me to have more options. They also felt that that would also imbue back in my work. So when I went to Yale I actually majored in history. In my sculptures I do a lot of things about time, like layers of the earth, a bouncing ball happening over time. It's interesting how things all still come through eventually. 

Amy: Oh my gosh, and that history background is probably essential to your work as an archivist as well.

Llisa: Exactly. It's been great. It's been so helpful in so many ways. Yes.

Amy: Was your teenage years truly that magical, or...? (Laughter) Come on. There's got to be something. 

Llisa: No, I think in my family everyone worked hard. The main thing was not not to rest on your laurels, but more like to always be thinking of the next project and thinking what you're doing. Be very intentional in what you're doing. Yes, there was great support, but I did think it was funny when my parents wanted me to have a plan B in college.

Also at that point, when I was 17, I graduated from high school and I decided to take a year off before college. That was a really important year for me to work in my parents' studio, hone those skills, but also earn enough money so I could go live in Paris with a friend of mine whose cousin was in the military, so the apartment was available. And go have that experience of living in another country and of course incredible art. So I could go to the museums all the time and to the Sorbonne. 

Amy: One thing that I'm picking up is the intentionality. You just said the word 'intentional' and it's clear through everything that you've said so far in your upbringing that there is a very clear through-line between why things are the way they are and how you have agency in not only affecting your future, but understanding the way things got to be the way they are. 

That understanding of the intentionality behind your own actions, but also behind how things got to be the way they are, is an incredible way to look at the world and something that a lot of people still struggle to really get there. 

Llisa: Absolutely. I even would add I was supported. No one tried to talk me out of being a sculptor. Instead I was given power tools and a band saw for my birthday, you know. (Laughter) It's not like anyone tried to dissuade me. It was more 'how do you do it?' Then you're left to your own devices to do it.

'Someone else isn't going to do that for you,' was very important. There would be mistakes, but that's again something I learned from Ray and Charles which is just because you make a mistake, that's not bad, that means you're closer and you can do something better the next time. They didn't call them failures, they called them 'misconceptions.'

Amy: That is interesting, too. I'm going to use that. (Laughter)

Llisa: It's a good one. It helps out in a lot of situations.

Amy: Okay, so you went to Yale and studied history. You also spent a year in Paris. These sound like pivotal experiences to me. Can you walk me through the major lessons, crossroads, and milestones that have since continued to shape your path from those years?

Llisa: I think having the travelling and spending time in Paris and learning at my parents' studio has absolutely shaped a lot of what I was going to be doing in the future. I guess for me one of the most important things was look at things of opportunities of learning. It may not be the final way you want to do something, but it's an opportunity [0.15.00] to try ideas out and do things.

That was a formative year. But an even more formative year was when I was graduating from Yale and at the end of my senior year I had an opportunity for two internships. One was one week working at an auction house on a catalog of a sale that was coming up. Then the other one was a six weeks internship at MoMA working in the Mies van der Rohe archive on his American drawings.

This is about 1989 when the Van Gogh sunflowers are selling for like $80 million. My experience at both places had a huge influence on me. What I found I was doing when I was at the auction house was buying all the catalogs that I could of the exhibits because I realized I might never see some of those artworks again. They would go into a private collection never to be seen by the public again.

Meanwhile my experience at working at MoMA was so great to see people changed by the art, the shared experience, the excitement, walking through the galleries. You saw some people come back regularly and it didn't matter who you are, you could be a celebrity or whoever, you were changed by the experience of being at MoMA walking through the spaces.

With that I wanted to stay in the nonprofit world and always use my abilities to help get work out there, help get it shared by more people is how I looked at it. So my six weeks turned into three years working on that project at MoMA. 

As the story goes that I heard, Arthur Wexler in the 1960s had gone to Mies van der Rohe and said, “We'd like to select about eight drawings,” and he came back the next day to get those eight drawings and Niece had put them in with all of the drawings and said, “You take all of it or none of it.” What I was doing was helping finish 10 years of other people's work in archiving and what we counted was we had 14,000 drawings.

Amy: Oh my god.

Llisa: This is where my love for archival material comes from because the coolest part to me was seeing Mies van der Rohe and his team iterating on the different locations, off the [** 0:17:28] the property. I mean there were like these 6x8 pieces of paper. You would almost think they were playing a card game, just throwing something into the middle of the table is how I visualized it. Try this. Try that.

The whole point I was doing this was they were doing a publication of the drawings. So it was working with former staff members at Mies's office making sure everything is in the right category. So it was a huge joy.

Then when I finished that they offered me another project which probably would have been a five year project of the furniture drawings with Lilly Reich. At that point I had asked my mother how it was going with the archival material because she had received and inherited so much from our grandmother and had it up in San Francisco. I said I was happy to help the family archive this material if you're interested. 30 years later, I'm still archiving.

Amy: I want to double back to the Mies van der Rohe project because you are absolutely right, it is not that interesting to see the finished drawing. It's more interesting to see everything they started with and edited out and then revised and iterated upon along the way to get to the finished drawing. Then you have some sense of how the idea grew.

Llisa: What you get to see is how it looks effortless. If you look at the Seagrams Building, if you look at the [cabinet 0:19:01] building. But what it took to get there. The base systems they considered. The proportions. The materials. All of this. It's an amazing amount of information that comes together to find the best possible solution. That's when I really saw the iterative process in another collection other than my grandparents' with seeing it in the Mies van der Rohe collection and also how he got to his own home runs in the designs.

Amy: What a gift to be able to see that window and interpret that.

Llisa: Yes. Absolutely.

Amy: I teach and when I ask students to present their ideas I often ask them to present the ideas that they've already rejected as well. (Laughter)

Llisa: That sounds great. I think that's a great idea. 

Amy: I think it's so helpful to understand where their [0.20.00] brain, where they've traveled through and why they've rejected certain things and we can learn so much more from our history, from our great designers, by having a window into that as well.

Llisa: I agree and it's almost like this analog material, how I look at it, is only becoming more important in this digital age because we can share this in different ways, this analog material. In an exhibit maybe they only have room to show five or 10 things, but with digital you can show the whole full over of that project.

Amy: I want to get into your latest venture, but before we go there are there any other pivotal experiences that you feel shaped you as an archivist and a bronze sculptor along the way to your, becoming a full-fledged human? (Laughter)

Llisa: The other thing that I would add was living and working with my mom, we lived on the same property and we also did our own artworks, is that seeing her process... I grew up with a mother who could weld, but she became allergic and she had to find another way to express her designs which is when laser cutting was coming in and we could.

Something that I love to do is communicate things in different ways, so I was helping her take these ideas and get them laser cut in different materials, aluminium, stainless steel, steel, right here in Petaluma and playing with the scales, the thickness, the durability, and the finishes. Even though it wasn't my own artwork I got a lot of experience working in other materials and seeing what they could or could not do.

Amy: You also got a window into an unfortunate lesson that sometimes we can spend our life's work perfecting a craft and then, you know, need to adapt in order to take care of ourselves if something becomes toxic about it.

Llisa: What's funny is I sort of asked my mother that and she said the only thing she was jealous about with how I got to work was that I got to weld and build and make all the decisions literally until the sculpture would leave my studio. First she says, “I had to make all my decisions before it went to the laser cutter, so I didn't have that freedom to make a little nuanced change.” It was much more difficult. Because she did everything herself before, this was having to rely on others to execute. 

Amy: That is interesting and it goes back to what you said earlier about working within architecture you can hold in your hand. That 10 ft scale as well as when you work with many different processes that require teams and outsourcing. It does require a different way of working.

Llisa: It does. I also think again, my mother being around Ray and Charles and my also being around Ray and Charles, we saw how they explored different materials and almost like every material has its advantages that other materials don't. My mother always looked at it as like 'What can the steel do that the stainless steel can't?' Or vice versa. I felt that was very informative for me then when I was making my own sculpture.

Amy: That does sound like an enriching environment to constantly be creating in. 

Llisa: You're always on. You don't retire in my family. You just go until you put your head down or something. (Laughter)

Amy: Talk to me now about your latest venture, the Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity. You are the Chief Curator, but you're embedded in the project all the way back through your DNA. It's a very personal and passionate mission for you. Can you start by giving me an overview of what it is and what it attempts to do?

Llisa: Yes. The Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity. Let me start that over. The Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity. Our mission is that we seek to equip everyone with the lessons of Ray and Charles Eames so that anyone can solve problems through design. [0.25.00]

I am the Chief Curator who gets to work with the collection and show these lessons through the collection is what I love to do. It can be through an exhibition. it can be giving a tour of the material or storytelling, or presentations. But all of the lessons that we share here are through the collection and that came from Ray and Charles's officer at 901. That's how we often refer to their office, as simply '901' because that was the address.

Amy: Are you generating actual visitor experiences or is this a digital content mission, or is it both?

Llisa: For right now the Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity is a website that shares the collection online and it's an opportunity. We have online exhibits, we have articles written about the collection, but also designers today who have worked many of the same ways that Ray and Charles did. This is a way for people to learn how Ray and Charles solved problems and then they can apply it to how they might solve problems for the future. 

Amy: Give me an example what that looks like. What are some of the inaugural exhibitions?

Llisa: Some of the online exhibits that we have are, I think many people are curious what Ray and Charles were doing before they met, and then also about the molded plywood which is some of the first chair designs that they did and also the leg splint that they did during the war. Then the third exhibit is about side chairs which is a chair that a lot of people recognize from having sat in them in auditoriums or doctor's offices over the years.

Amy: Yeah, iconic.

Llisa: Very iconic. Very recognisable. When people enter the world of Ray and Charles's work it's often through furniture, but what we're doing here at the Eames Institute is showing how they applied that same thinking for designing a chair to also how they designed an exhibit, the photography, the architecture that they did. It's more about how they solved problems than just the finished project.

Amy: I can see that because they were so trans-disciplinary in their every day, the way they operated, that there would be these underlying connections. Even the leg splint is a really great example of how they might be working on compound molding of plywood and then they can see how it would apply to very different industries and functions in really meaningful ways. And that even from there, underneath that if they could solve a problem in another industry, that might actually finance or at least support and offer traction for solving problems in a different industry.

Llisa: That is so true, and part of [0.30.00] what we've done here is distilled these into five lessons of Ray and Charles. Things like awareness: the act of seeing, context: the act of relating, problem solving: the act of finding, communication: the act of sharing, and process: the act of making. 

To give you an example, just part of what they made like with the airport tandem seating, was talking to not just the person as they put it who is buying the furniture, but also the person who is going to take care of the furniture. The problem with airport seating at the time was they were upholstered and heavy. The two shapes, the back and the seat were two different shapes. They were hard to store.

What Ray and Charles did is they came up with a way with having the back and the seat being the same shape it took just one person and a screwdriver to pop open and replace the parts. In other words they really, to me I almost look at it like they mended systems. They made them better and stronger, seeing where the weak points were.

Amy: And they took into consideration that if this piece was going to be truly functional it needed to also be long-lasting. It had to function not just for holding somebody's carcass, but it needed to function in terms of how it was going to live in the airport and how the people who were caring for it were going to be able to care for it easily. Brilliant.

Llisa: It is. What we share here is that Ray and Charles weren't thinking about making one chair. They were trying to create systems to make 100,000 chairs. Then they thought even further than that: How to make a sustainable chair. How to make it better for the environment. It's a whole other way of questioning what they were making that I think people see the result, but we can share how they got there. 

Amy: I can learn these lessons through going to the Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity online. Is this also... You mentioned collaborators and I'm kind of excited to hear from you where you think future exhibits might go and what kinds of other lessons might be coming in the future.

Llisa: I think for us it's really watching and seeing the response from people who have been here before and seeing what they're doing today, what lessons they took away.  I feel like this work online is a way for people to percolate about these ideas and these lessons that we're sharing. They often come back and share how they applied it or what they're thinking, what really resonated with each person.

So for me it's going to be exciting. I am hoping that this reaches broadly. That's what special having the website is reaching a broader audience, working in many different areas, and working within many constraints is what Ray and Charles would call it and learning from that. It's almost like a community is what I'm hoping for. 

Amy: Or ecosystem, I'm hearing.

Llisa: Exactly. 

Amy: The beauty of this execution in a website too, is the infinite accessibility. There are very few boundaries to people being able to access this. As an educator I just really appreciate that. Not everybody can go to design school. I also think that if you can percolate this with children as you have so clearly exemplified in your youth, we can start to grow really amazing creatives who will shape a world that is more inclusive and ecologically harmonious. 

Llisa: Yes.

Amy: Okay, I'm getting really idealist. 

Llisa: No, no. I completely agree with you. I think you can never start too early on this. It starts as early in age as possible. What the website does is it makes it very approachable. As Ray and Charles, they would make two minute short films about mathematical principles. 

They said, “If the person doesn't get it the first time, they can watch it again.” What I am hoping for the website is these are skills that people can learn how Ray and Charles did it, not to say that they have to do it that way. But it might help inform another way that they might approach something.

To give you another example. I always loved that when Ray and Charles were first designing chairs, they were designing them with three legs. Now that's a great concept because you know, a three legged stool or chair is very solid on the ground. Right? And then they tested them and what they found is people don't know [0.35.00] how to get out of a three legged chair without falling over. (Laughter)

What they realized was you can't teach people how to sit in a chair, you have to work with how they sit in a chair. So then they changed them to four legs. But again, that wasn't a failure, that was just a 'misconception.' That's another thing that is really important, is try out the ideas. “Don't just talk about them, just try them,” is what Charles would tell us grandchildren. Try. Don't just write it out on a napkin. See if it works and then go from there.

Amy: I love it. I work with a faculty here who says, “Get real, fast.” It means get out of the computer. Do all the renderings you want, but get out of the computer and get into real materials, real scale, real proportions, fast. Or else you won't ever really know if it works.

Llisa: One thing that is funny is it's always interesting to me how people interpret the lessons that we're sharing. Some people think 'fail fast,'. The main thing is 'it's okay to fail,' is more the message that goes through. 

I guess what I always wanted just to add was what we're doing today evolved from work of mouth. It was just simply my mother and I sharing stories with the archival material that she kept, and people maybe coming in knowing one thing about Ray and Charles but then walking away going, “Wow, they also did all these other things that I had no idea about.”

One thing that I love about here is when Charles and Ray were designing an exhibit they didn't try to show everything on the topic like math. What they tried to do was simply show six or eight things that got that person excited enough that they want to learn more. So that's what I'm hoping for the Eames Institute is I just want people to follow their curiosity and always want to learn more.

Amy: That's beautiful. As you're talking about this and mentioning all the stories that you and your mother have and this all came from word of mouth, I'm really hoping there is some kind of oral history storytelling component to this that is going to capture all those stories in your own family inflections.

Llisa: Well you're starting this so that's great. (Laughter)

Amy: I'm so excited to be a part of it! 

Llisa: What's really funny is what I love, it's like when I've given a tour at an exhibit or with the archival material here with a curator, each tour is different because I am watching what the person is looking at. Let's just say there's 100 objects in the room. They're starting to make connections where they recognize something and then that leads to something else. What's amazing with the collection is that every object has a story, but literally when we count up everything it will be about 20,000 object.

Amy: My god. Enormous.

Llisa: It's both what Ray and Charles made, also what they collected. But we call it a 'working collection' because it helped inform what they were doing and whatever they were working on. I mean they were always looking for similarities between cultures, not the differences. They were curious about what are some toys that are just passed down from one generation to another, like kites and tops are in many, many cultures.

That's why I'm saying for me it's just fascinating to see. I'm always learning from this collection every day and I feel so fortunate. All I want to do is make this available to more people which is why I'm so excited about this website as we keep adding on. We're going to do monthly exhibits and as we share and unbox things. We're still unboxing things.

Amy: Oh my god, this is amazing. I want to talk about your creative process in terms of developing these exhibits. I'm wondering are you also employing some of the lessons? Are you iterating and trying things out and seeing what works? How do you conceive of an exhibition that might percolate curiosity and provide enough information to spark passion and ideas, but not so much that it overwhelms?

Llisa: That's why we were starting with these first three online exhibits, because you can see the hands-on learning that Ray and Charles did with the molded plywood for example. Which I always love that as soon as they developed the prototypes do you know what they realized, Amy?

Amy: What?

Llisa: How something is made influences design. They had to make not just the prototypes, but the machines that made [0.40.00] the prototypes.

Amy: Right. Of course. 

Llisa: Exactly. So for me it's we're able to share that and how they scale that idea up and how they could take an idea for a chair that could be adapted into a leg splint for the war effort. I also appreciate that that was a way they could help the war effort without hurting anybody, by developing that leg splint.

All of these lessons, I breathe them. When I know this is when I'm developing these online exhibits and as we're coordinating with the stories that will be in Kazam at the same time. We're looking at highlighting some of these very important lessons about problem solving like for the leg splint, or also the communications and how Ray and Charles, whether it was a piece of furniture or it was the architecture of a home, or a graphic, were communicating their ideas.

I still think all of this is relevant today, so it still always remains fresh to me. They were also amazing in how they looked at things, taking a step back to make sure they're understanding the full context. Also something may look like chaos further back, but then you go in deep and you start to see how things are connected one part to the next.

Amy: It's like zooming in and out.

Llisa: Right. One thing that surprises people is they didn't realize how Ray and Charles were thinking sustainably much sooner than a lot of other people. For example, working on the national aquarium proposal which maybe some people don't know as much about. That was really about helping people care for something that they couldn't see. They were making the invisible visible. 

Most people don't go scuba diving or snorkelling on a regular basis, but how could you care for this underwater world that was very important to our ecosystem. So that was doing the national aquarium. Or Ray discontinued the use of Rosewood on the lounge chair and ottoman when she heard of the impact on the Brazilian forest and said to my mother, “When there's a sustainable way of doing it then bring it back, but not until then.”

Amy: That's a powerful lesson to instill in your children and to also... I don't know if there was an economic fallout from that, but to actually stand by your principles and what is good for the world or the highest good as opposed to what's currently in motion and might be disruptive to stop. 

Llisa: It's never been a burden. It's always been a joy to be a part of this legacy and it's very much for me what my grandparents did and then what I learned from them. Then I put it to my own work. There's plenty of room for everyone in the world of Eames.

Amy: The intentionality that you started off this conversation talking about is coming through also in the stewardship of the legacy because it's not just about archiving the work, it's not just about exhibiting what they did and when they did it, or even talking about it's historical significance. 

It's about activating it so that those lessons can be shared by everyone. It's the belief in those lessons and how they will propagate a promising future that it underscoring all of this. Let it also be recognized the extreme care and intention that you and your family are putting into this and also all of the other people that are working on this Eames Institute.

We need to acknowledge the emotional and creative labor that goes into things and a lot of times that's intangible and as you pointed out with Mies van der Rohe and other things, a lot of times it's invisible because we only focus on the finished product. But when you invest something with a genuine care and intention for it's highest good, for it's best expression, for it's ability to be long-lasting and influence people in meaningful and positive ways, that's just the most important thing you can do in the world.

Llisa: It is. I feel my responsibility is [0.45.00] I felt so empowered by my grandparents that I want everyone to feel that empowered and my job is to figure out how to communicate these lessons that I learned, that my mother learned. This is why the new website and this launching of the Eames Institute is such an extraordinary opportunity. 

It's going to change. It's going to evolve. We're going to learn what resonates with people. We're going to iterate. This is just like the first moment of this and seeing what connects. I will feel like I have succeeded if I know that everyone can learn these skills that I did.

As my grandparents said, they didn't believe in the gifted view. That you get good at what you like to do, so find what you like to do. The way I interpreted that was whatever you're doing in your free time, make your full-time job.

Amy: That is a way to stoke your passion for sure. There are a lot of people who grew up on a diatribe of 'work hard'..

Llisa: They worked hard, but they also played hard.

Amy: Yeah, but there was a disconnect between working hard and what your passion was. Almost as if your passion couldn't possibly be work. You know what I mean?

Llisa: Right.

Amy: Therefore it was discounted in such a way.

Llisa: That's so unfortunate.

Amy: I agree.

Llisa: It's a loss for all of us because I learn from other people. I watch to see how people engage with the material. It reminds me of other stories or other lessons. It's informative. Like that borscht story, it was great. I shared this with a docent at one of the museums when there was an Eames exhibit travelling and I later saw at the exhibit. She came over to me and she said, “Your borscht story worked.” 

I said, “Really? Great! What happened?” She said, “My grandchildren always complained about my salads, so the next time they complained about the salads I said, 'What should we do differently?' And it turns out they didn't like the mushrooms; the salad leaves were a little too big. So I had them help me make the salad and now we all love our salads.” I said, “That's perfect.”

Amy: That's totally perfect! We need to capture all of these stories. That's going to be my mission: To help you archive all of these stories. If I have to have a million phone calls with you to capture it.

Llisa: I would love that! I would love that! But this is what's so funny, talking to you is reminding me of things and that's leading to other things. It's these other pathways of learning that I had and I love sharing them with you. It's been so much fun with being able to talk to you about these things.

Amy: I have to ask if there are no failures, there are only misconceptions and if you should not be afraid to encounter some of those failures, I've got to hear a story about a failure. Either yours or one that you've witness that was actually a great turnaround. How do you work with yourself through the extreme disappointment of something not turning out the way you thought it would?

Llisa: You're talking to a perfectionist, so there's always failure. But I always remember what's more important is doing the work. I always think of Ray and Charles's work as participatory. You sit in a chair, you go walk through and learn in an exhibit, you watch a film. 

What I'm realising is with the institute is that the best thing that will happen with the lessons is when people apply them. I apply them in my daily life and anyone who comes to the website applies them, because that is the work that needs to happen. Yes, there's going to be lots of failures, there's failures all the time, but I don't look at them as failures. I just feel like I move the needle a little bit closer to success the next time I try.

Amy: That is the absolute best way to look at it. It's not a setback, you move the needle closer.

Llisa: I don't even know if I'm ever going to get there, but I'm doing my best and I'm enjoying every moment of it. I just can't even tell you, Amy. This is such an extraordinary moment to be launching this website and to be sharing this legacy with the world in a whole new way. It's just amazing and I can't wait for you to visit the website [0.50.00] and to enjoy it and let me know what you think. Anyway.

Amy: I will be there. I wouldn't be a creative if I didn't ask you how you're taking the participatory nature of people visiting the website and engaging in these lessons. How are you going to capture that experience? What's the mechanism for capturing people's responses?

Llisa: I think people are going to be writing us or emailing us. I'm trying to make myself available. All of us want to learn what people are experiencing on the website, and it's going to be an iterative process. We're always going to be learning from this. It's going to be an exciting process of taking in the feedback. 

Today there are so many channels to have feedback, but what is exciting is that it's never going to stop. The learning never stops. We'll always be improving upon it, taking in what people are saying, what they like or don't like, what they want more of, what they might want less of. I have no idea. 

I do feel though what we are launching is something that has been distilled of 20 years of my mother and I doing this more in person. Now we are translating this into something that is digital. I feel like there's a lot of good grounding and a lot of many years of experience of watching this resonate with people. So there is some good material in there no matter what.

Amy: Clearly. The borscht story works, so we know that. I'm a big fan of storytelling as you might have guess, so I am also deeply interested and invested in how you're able to bring these stories to life through digital interaction and participatory nature and I will be very much tuned into that and paying attention to how that gets distributed out through your various channels.

It can't be understated; I'm also really picking up on your genuine joy in this endeavor and I'm really heartened by that because I firmly believe that creative education is something that we need to adapt. It's how humans are going to adapt in an increasingly uncertain and wild, changing world.

Llisa: I agree completely.

Amy: Yes! And yet it's not exactly championed in general pop culture because there are still so many people who believe that it's not really a secure or lucrative path to go down. 

Llisa: Sadly. I have two children and a lot of this I think of their future and the world that they will be in. That's another reason why I love doing this, is for the next generations. The way I look at this is when someone comes away from the website maybe learning one or two different ways that Ray and Charles solved a problem is Charles would often talk about the toolkit and if all you have is a hammer in the toolkit you will solve every problem with a hammer. (Laughter)

So what I am trying to do is add more tools to the toolkit is the way I look at this. You can use them or not, but that's one of the things that we're trying to do. Also I believe in design with a lower case D, not capital D. Design is available to everyone. You are designing your life every day and making choices.

This is just for people to become more conscious of the choices that they're making, thinking of the larger context, are there other ways to solve problems, how to you communicate that idea, how are you seeing this, and then how are doing it.

Amy: That's perfectly put. That's exactly what design is. It's not even the outcome, it's the framework for making those decisions. And the toolkit. The toolkit is so important and I love that story. My sister asked me, her daughter is considering studying industrial design and she's like, “What's the difference between that and a business major? How will she be set up?” I was like, “Well [0.55.00] as an industrial designer you will always be able to generate your own seeds to plant. 

Llisa: Yes.

Amy: It's also helpful that she has a side car education in business because that will help her fertilize those seeds.

Llisa: Yes.

Amy: But if you just have an education in business you're always going to be fertilizing somebody else's seeds and if you're not passionate about those seeds it's not a very meaningful existing.

Llisa: And that's the sort of self-examination that happens and will be fruitful for that individual. Charles had a great quote about, “Just because you understand how a rainbow works, doesn't take away from it's magic.” The more we can make it transparent how you work and how you make choices, you will end up making better choices. I want us to be good stewards moving forward. That's part of why I do what I do. 

Amy: I love that you're doing what you're doing and I can't wait to come visit.

Llisa: You're welcome any time.

Amy: And hear all the stories. I want to hear all those stories and I want to capture them.

Llisa: I love sharing the stories with you and I just really thank you for this opportunity to share this exciting moment of the legacy as we're launching the website literally just yesterday.

Amy: That is so exciting. Okay, what is the URL so everyone can go visit?

Llisa: It's eamesinstitute.org. Go and visit and you can see the online exhibits that I was just sharing about, and you read some of the wonderful stories in Kazam. Also just get a little grounding in who Ray and Charles were, and my mother, and how we are taking this legacy in the years to come. For me what we're doing is we're not looking at the past, we're looking forward to how we can solve the problems in the future with this legacy.

Amy: Very, very powerful. I also just want to encourage our listeners to engage in that process, give the feedback that they're seeking in order to make this a successful and really meaningful endeavor for as many people as possible.

Llisa: Yes, Ray and Charles were never interested in how a chair looked. They just wanted to know if it was doing its job in five, 10, 15, 25 years. I want to set us up so that the website is doing its job which is to help share these lessons to help people understand how to solve problems in the future in 25 years, 50 years, 100 years.

Amy: I want to leave this with a question for you, you personally, Llisa Demetrios. You have an extraordinary job in front of you, one that you seem to be engaging with with a tremendous amount of joy. You're still an active bronze sculptor, correct?

Llisa: I have to say I have shifted more to the archival material and taking care of that. I still work in wood and other materials than just bronze. I've branched out. After about 15 years of bronze, I did decided I would try some other materials. (Laughter)

Amy: Well I think you can pick another material and get to know that very well.

Llisa: Exactly. (Laughter)

Amy: As a full-spectrum human who is deeply engaged in this work, can you just leave me with something that fortifies you? That helps you maintain your optimism and that keeps you motivated every day? Even if it's not related to this legacy, but as just a practice?

Llisa: One of my greatest joys is watching somebody have an 'aha' moment when they engage with the material or just understanding the idea. So for me it's watching the 'aha' moments for people is the greatest pleasure. Even better, they share them back with me and hearing that, why that is something to them. 

It can be about Ray and Charles' work, but it's also whether it's my sculpture or whatever it is. It's that connection that you have with another person that means that you're understanding each other, you're sharing this amazing incredible nugget of something. Those are the special moments in life and I treasure all of them. 

Amy: That's beautiful. I treasure those, too. Those are my favorite.

Llisa: Isn't it fun to watch somebody when they're like, “Oh!”

Amy: When the light bulb goes off it's just amazing.

Llisa: Right! You must see it with your students and your colleagues, too. It's just like [1.00.00] there's just something, 'Okay! Wow! That was awesome!'

Amy: I feel like when that happens we both for a second travelled to another dimension together and then come back to this real moment in time with a new understanding. It feels like a deep moment of connection and I love it. 

Llisa: Right. It's a very special shift. It's like something shifts and changes and you're witness to it. You never forget it.

Amy: No, and in fact you feel changed. You feel evolved or in some way have grown from it. 

Llisa: That's what keeps me going happily, because it happens a lot. With the work of my grandparents it's pretty easy, too. (Laughter) I've got to say it's pretty special material to work with every day and I don't take it for granted and I just want to share it as much as possible.

Amy: Well thank you for sharing it with us. You're amazing, Llisa. Good luck to you on this mission. I'm very excited about it.

Llisa: Thank you so much. It was great talking with you. I look forward to your visiting sometime soon.

Amy: Thank you for listening! To see images of Llisa and her work - read the show notes, click the link in the details of this episode on your podcast app, or go to cleverpodcast.com where you can also sign up for our newsletter, subscribe to Clever on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts If you’re resonating with Clever, we really appreciate your ratings and reviews. They help us share these stories with others who might also enjoy them. We also love chatting with you on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook - you can find us @cleverpodcast. You can find me, @amydevers Clever is hosted & produced by me, Amy Devers, with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan and music by El Ten Eleven. Clever is part of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit airwavemedia.com to discover more great shows. They curate the best of them, so you don’t have to.

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What is your earliest memory?

My mother and I going on a nature walk near the coast led by a wonderful teacher named Mrs. Terwilliger.  She was well known for leading educational walks in the wetlands and redwood forests.  I remember it being damp and cold but I felt cozy in my hooded jacket and holding my mother’s hand while Mrs. Terwilliger was passing around a soaproot plant. She explained all the things that soaproot could do and I felt amazed by how one plant could be used in so many ways as I held it in my hand.

How do you feel about democratic design? 

That has always been the goal.  As Charles said, they wanted to make ‘the best, for the most, for the least’ - to make the best products for the most people for the least amount of money.

What’s the best advice that you’ve ever gotten?

The best advice that I ever received is also one of my earliest memories of spending time with my grandparents Ray and Charles.  We had gone out to dinner near their office in Venice, California where we had had some borscht soup.  As we walked back, Charles asked me what I had thought of dinner. I was about 8 years old at the time, and I said firmly that I didn’t like it very much. Without missing a beat, Charles turned to me and asked how I would have done things differently. I was surprised.  I realized that if I complain then I need to have a better way of doing something. Charles asked if I knew what the ingredients were in borscht and I said no. He explained and we talked about beets, potatoes and onions and what other foods that could be made with those ingredients. We came up with stories of why the chef made borscht that particular day - maybe that was all that was at the farmer’s market, maybe the chef it was a favorite dish of her grandmother and perhaps it was her birthday.  It was a valuable design lesson and an unforgettable life lesson.

How do you record your ideas?

My phone has become my indispensable tool. I take photos all the time. I used to download, edit and put them into categories like textures, colors, shapes, places… but now I like keeping them simply in chronological order.  I can see new connections, and patterns when I look at the photos over weeks, months and years.

I also like to write ideas, lists, observations, connections, inspirations on my phone.  I have multiple pages going at one time, can rearrange edit, and then cut/paste into a draft email so I can continue on my computer when I need to.

What’s your current favorite tool or material to work with?

I like to focus on and explore one material deeply. Lately I am collecting a variety of papers – found, recycled, newspapers, tissue, wrapping, handmade, confetti, vintage, new – all kinds of paper.  At the moment, I am arranging by colors, patterns and textures into clear boxes so I can see all the categories at once and to use later for some projects around identity and memory.

What book is on your nightstand? 

Dear Data by Giorgia Lupi and Stefanie Posavec

For starters, I like to just flip through it and look at the graphics, and revisit some pages because I always see something new.  Along with the striking images, I love seeing how the data has been gathered, processed and conveyed by both Giorgia and Stefanie in their own ways.  It is an amazing chronicle of how they succinctly convey the data that they each collected in a meaningful way.  

Favorite restaurant in your city?

A favorite for almost twenty years is Cafe Zazzle in Petaluma. They serve a range of delicious foods like Louis salad, Santa Fe wrap, Caesar salad, beef fajita noodles, coleslaw and lettuce wraps. And one always has to save room for dessert because they make divine key lime pies and chocolate mousse.

What might we find on your desk right now?

Radiometer from childhood, sheep bell that was a gift, Herman Miller toy truck, small wooden llama, a blue top, cups of colorful pencils and pens, my calendar next to my iMac, and a stack of blank paper to take notes on during Zoom calls.

What’s your favorite project that you’ve done and why?

The Eames Institute is my favorite project because it has evolved and grown out of something that I love to do.  I have learned so much living here with my mother for twenty years.  We have been iterating on how we shared the legacy here all that time.  I got to see the wonder on people's faces when they would come and experience the material first-hand. With the new website it's so exciting to think about how many more people will get to share that experience, and for the legacy of my grandparents to grow in surprising and delightful new directions.

What are the last five songs you listened to?

Follow You by Imagine Dragons

As It Was by Harry Styles 

Get Lucky by Daft Punk

Chandelier by Sia

Joe Pass classical guitar album

What is the Eames Institute’s mission?

Our Eames Institute mission is that “we seek to equip everyone with the lessons of Ray and Charles Eames, so that anyone can solve problems through design.”

The Eames Institute has launched with a digital portal in the first instance, allowing people from all over the world equal access to the materials and concepts within. This interactive platform features a variety of exciting new resources, from countless additions to the Eames collection categorized in unique exhibitions to articles from the new Kazam! Magazine written by distinct writers and more. The overarching goal of the organization is to unpack the way that the Eameses worked, the way they infused their designs and lives with curiosity and discovery at every turn. We will be participating in pop up exhibitions, talks, and other physical programming to give people that ability to participate more personally. Eventually, the Institute hopes to have a physical home, with enough space to store and lovingly display the collection of which it is stewarding. We will share more information on that plan when it becomes available.

What are the 5 lessons from Ray & Charles ?

The 5 lessons from Ray & Charles are "the lesson with the power to change the world for the better."

• Awareness - Act of Seeing

• Context - Act of Relating

• Problem Solving - Act of Finding

• Communication - Act of Sharing

• Process of - Act of Making

Where can our listeners find you on the web and on social media?

eamesinstitute.org

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Clever is produced and hosted by Amy Devers with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan, and music by El Ten Eleven.

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